# Feedback on Why Play Go Created: Oct 18, 2020 3:31 PM Tags: Efficiency, Philosophy, feedbacker, go, jiu jitsu, links, martial arts, motivation, psychology, sports, why URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5fjDaFuft8&feature=youtu.be Updated: Mar 15, 2021 1:18 PM The Posts: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSS4BSBsRPQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSS4BSBsRPQ) [Facebook Groups](https://www.facebook.com/groups/174505489266127/permalink/3264708256912486) [Why to Play Go and Resources on it](https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments/jd6d4y/why_to_play_go_and_resources_on_it/) --- Make the disclaimer that you're not a philosopher nor a psychologist, so we won't be able to go as deep into this as ideally we should. But maybe I could post on StackExchange about it... > I have a folder within my browser favorites with some old material on this topic. It's in _Others > Baduk > Benefits of Playing Go_. Other feedback: 1. Me - Go can help people lose indecision, as they develop expertise in it. - However, it's worth noting that, in order to use whatever you learn in Go or other sports, you will need to generalize the concepts, otherwise they will only be localized to Go forever, and you will never be aware of the connections. - Go is like interactive art, like sex, so we should focus on building together a better experience, it sucks when the other ruins it psychologically or mathematically. - Go features a lot of the art of abstraction. Everything human is there, without the annoying, noisy parts. You can learn about the emotions of fighting — even though not fighting itself — with no need of the body intervening or serving as a medium. - If your life is monotonous, Go will be the perfect pass time for you. On the other hand, if your life demands a lot of mental effort you might find it hard to play Go later in the day. - No more videogames: this ultimate game will simply dominate your gaming interest if you end up liking it. - This also goes for board games, albeit in a smaller scale. - Since Go is so obscure, there's special joy and pride in discovering things, because they are difficult to come by. Whenever you do, it's almost like rediscovering a theorem. - It's like Minecraft, but better. - If you truly want to convince people, you're gonna have to offer more than just a game. Competition against other more interesting sports like Jiu Jitsu will be tough. - Even though it's as visually and physically stimulating as Jiu Jitsu, you're gonna be able to enjoy Go pretty much anywhere, like at a bar, at home, with friends, in competition, alone, etc. - Tsumegos are really fun exercises to people who like puzzles. - There is no risk of physical injuries in Go. - The game is aesthetically beautiful. - Do people approach appreciating art in the same competitive manner? Not really, they actually simply appreciate it, and getting better at it enhances the appreciation. - [The Win-Rate to Have someone always interested](../Quotes%20ced9d1408a374acb8aac0aa7b25384b6/The%20Win-Rate%20to%20Have%20someone%20always%20interested%203155021027a84234a3dd14fb0fa1bab6.md) - Go will teach you the power of context. [The Importance of BJJ Fundamentals by John Danaher](https://youtu.be/-zgwLkCoWDw) - Sports where you can only use your brain instead of brute forcing offer you the ability of having a stronger mind. - Believe it or not, you will be able to tap into your truly violent self. - If you like martial arts and fighting, you're gonna like Go. It's like mind fighting. - [What you will get from competing in Jiu Jitsu](../Quotes%20ced9d1408a374acb8aac0aa7b25384b6/What%20you%20will%20get%20from%20competing%20in%20Jiu%20Jitsu%20055f1b6bde1048cb8be23596a57e5ea0.md) - The Go community tends to be of a much more intellectual and polite kind, which results and more positive interactions in general. - You will often have the opportunity to apply what you've just learned on the next game. [Advice for New BJJ Coaches Nervous About Teaching Classes](https://youtu.be/MnlSxCy-WLU?t=347) - Given that none of us will ever be anyone in the Go world, we should focus on the psychological benefits Go will bring us. - Go has taught me more than university or the sports I had previously practiced. - Go is an accelerated simulation of your inner psyche.q [Go is a martial art: it's also about expression](Go%20is%20a%20martial%20art%20it's%20also%20about%20expression%2034d5dde5a06d477284ffa48800c075bf.md) - Learning something everyday should be the top-most priority when it comes to learning, even when it comes to being an advanced player. - This will also relieve you from stress of not getting better. - It doesn't have appendix rules like castling in chess. - Mention The Game of Life by Conway and how complexity arises from the simplest stuff. - Also mention the biology stuff that brought me into the game when I was starting. - First game where local and global positions were intertwined. - Since this is a mental sport, you can enjoy it for way longer than any other sport, and continue to improve even after your 40s or 50s. - No need to hurry on learning either. Everyone has his own pace, and there's an entire lifetime to learn the basic concepts. - Don't forget to emphasize avoiding shame. - Be prepared to be overwhelmed - Camus and Sisyphus. - Maybe briefly mentioning the absurd could improve the content. - Just because most of the arguments work for other sports, that doesn't mean they are useless, because they could also be made for when you're learning those other sports. - You will need volume. No staring into the same thing forever will make you good at anything. - Go clubs or schools and the internet don't do a good job at growing people personally. Studying is too individual. In part, this is due to the fact that Go is a much more individual sport than, say, Jiu Jitsu. - Having an intellectual hobby could a plus, though it sounds condescending to others. - Emphasize thinking about the meta and the psychology of the game, the ultimate dependency. - My story about my motivation might be interesting to other people. [Just because you can win a game, it doesn't mean you can win in the overall arch.](Just%20because%20you%20can%20win%20a%20game,%20it%20doesn't%20mean%20y%203816d80ca60a4abc880d7bf1394c0139.md) - Simon Sinek and Infinite Games. [When you're only focused on winning, your cognitive map shrinks](../Quotes%20ced9d1408a374acb8aac0aa7b25384b6/When%20you're%20only%20focused%20on%20winning,%20your%20cognitiv%200009448c14b641f5be1e48f7da1743b5.md) - You will never be done. - It's also important to tell the student how long it takes to get good. For example, struggling for 6 months is basically nothing in the grand scheme of things. - It's better than Kumon for math. - Try learning how to balance your passion for a game/sport and life. - Shut Up and Sit Down - [Learn how to teach games before you teach others.](https://youtu.be/P5fjDaFuft8) - Ensure things are set up before the beginner starts. - The 3 most important questions: 1. Who are we? 2. How do we win? 3. Why will this be fun? - Use examples. And personalize them to the student/beginner. - Encourage questions. Make sure you're available during the explanation. - Don't teach together, but accept help if it improves the experience (flight attendant). - "If you win a game you're teaching, you've already lost." - Use dummy, test runs. - Start with smaller games. - Parallelize the building blocks so they can be learned in a simpler manner. - Laercio mentions that the programming culture and community made getting better more fun. And it supposedly helps with programming reviews. - The — intellectual — challenge Klaus put is also another drive for interest. - Benefits for Kids - Problem-solving - Focus - Patience - Follow-through - The thing is: where else are you going to find people — who are aware of and — who can discuss this sort of topic so openly, thoroughly and directly? - Go is interactive art - It's a painting you do with the other person. When you play to the best of your abilities, it's basically the same as creating a good drawing. But it also has the mathematical properties of discovery. 2. ChewJitsu - Once you're a black belt, you won't (or you're not expected to need it as much) need the boosts rank gives beginners. 3. Sato - Prepare-se para gastar um bom tempo no basicão. E aprenda a gostar disso. - Muito relacionado a dificuldades enfrentadas em qualquer outra área, como Jiu Jitsu. 4. Murugandi - Go as something that could inspire you. - Art - Also related to creativity - Don't focus too much on winning. - According to him, this desperation to win comes from 2 factors: 1. Wanting to apply a breakthrough you had and see where it can get you. 2. You've hit your limit at your current level and just can't seem to improve no matter what. So you give up on learning and only try to win. - I still think it boils down to insecurity, like Chewie said. - One jiu jitsu teacher told me one thing that hit me really hard when it comes to this want to win: it all boils down to insecurity. This desperation to win that we have is just us trying to get rid of a source insecurity we have. Winning would give us shelter from it. It's a bit like fighting the symptom and not the disease. - He also mentions will power. - The path to learning is never straight. 5. gennan (Reddit) - Letting kids have fun is very important in terms of convincing since they don't care that much about rational arguments. - What is fun in Go? - Fun is very social - The social aspect is very important for kids also. 6. Frederic Schlattner - The beauty and the flow of the game are incredibly compelling and play a huge role in the subconscious of players, even though it's difficult to rationalize it. - Find out a way of transmitting this to people, maybe art critics will have insights on it. 7. Thiago Sinji Shimada Ramos - Go connects with the past and the future, the timeline of human kind in an abstract, simple game. It is good for the mind and the soul. 8. kkala (Reddit) - People are competitive, and Go is such a deep game that it is more satisfying to win there than in a common dice game. - Generating a healthy environment that makes learning pleasant can be more important than actually giving reasons to why play Go. In the end the person is addicted to the environment and not really the game. - The environment also plays a huge part in each player's improvement path. 9. Wranglestar (YouTube) - [Can A Knife Be Too Sharp? 2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBa7zZXyr-w) - It's wonderful to be able to have focus on a single task (usually pleasantly simple) and forget about all the complexities of life. 10. [Hard Boring Work and Sneaky Tricks - Teacher's Workshop 2013](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUVKOLDYuB8) - Andrew Jackson (2013) discusses motivation to learn Go. - Bloom's Taxonomy (the first 3 are easy; the others are hard, specially evaluation — in chess, this is simpler, specially for computers: do you have a queen and the other player doesn't?) 1. Knowledge 2. Comprehension 3. Application 4. Analysis 5. Synthesis 6. Evaluation - Mentions Malcolm Gladwell's book _10,000 hours_. - Key skills to getting to 1 dan: 1. Read & Visualize 2. Fundamental shapes 3. Direction 4. Rudimentary Strategy - Ericson's Deliberate Practice: 1. Motivation 2. At (or just above) your skill level 3. Feedback (Informative and Immediate) 4. Iteration - People who run in front of televisions do _worse_ than those who don't: paying attention helps you get better. - In Go, there's usually a long distance between the mistake and the punishment. - Evaluation is also related to the Socratic method: asking rhetorically why they're wrong. - Sneaky tricks for doing hard, boring work: - Do it in the shower. - Fixed schedule. - Having a goal. - Hang out with interested friends. - World class violinists have the same amount of practice as other dedicated practitioners. The difference is that they were harder on themselves and practice never became rote, they were always trying to keep everything tight. - One Russian psychologist thought he could teach anyone how to be a grandmaster in chess. So he had 4 daughters and got them all to be grandmasters, using what has been discussed so far. 3 of them stopped playing later on. --- Maybe the summarized answer is: Go offers the clearest way to the patterns of mastery, which can be applied to so many other facets of life. Unlike other games, like chess, since it has less rules and is more abstract, there's more you can derive from it. And since it doesn't involve much physicality, you can isolate everything to your mind and psychology. But, in the end, it's all a very personal choice. --- Actually, the main reason for playing Go is this: do you like people who you can discuss these things with? Do you have the same tendencies? Then maybe Go is the exact community and game for you. Everything discussed above was necessary to come up with the metaphysical conclusion that the main reason for playing the game is not the game itself but what surrounds it, both the contents and history but mainly the people. > Recursion And if you can't appreciate the thought process throughout this whole discussion, then maybe the community itself shouldn't even bother with you. (Too passive-aggressive) --- ## Dr. K on Motivation Tags: Psychology, Philosophy https://youtu.be/3QWIxElEnc8 - Motivation is within the mind, it is not behavior. - Motivation is the ability of holding a thought within your mind. - Suicide takes a huge amount of motivation. - Desire is not motivation, it's a sensory stimulus. - Anxiety does not come from the thing that's motivating you, but the consequences of doing it or not doing it. - Anxiety is a very powerful thing to bump motivation out of your mind. - Goals are not what motivates people, it is a means of establishing the tasks that will keep you motivated. Most motivated people are focused on the task at hand. - Self-discipline is an emergent property, it is not what keeps you motivated. --- ## Motivation on Lumen Learning [Motivation | Introduction to Psychology](https://courses.lumenlearning.com/wmopen-psychology/chapter/introduction-motivation/) - Intrinsic vs Extrinsic Motivation - The overjustification effect - Tangible rewards (i.e., money) tend to have more negative effects on intrinsic motivation than do intangible rewards (i.e., praise) - Extrinsic motivation as a surprise doesn't affect intrinsic motivation as much. - In educational settings, students are more likely to experience intrinsic motivation to learn when they feel a sense of belonging and respect in the classroom. - This internalization can be enhanced if the evaluative aspects of the classroom are de-emphasized and if students feel that they exercise some control over the learning environment. - Furthermore, providing students with activities that are challenging, yet doable, along with a rationale for engaging in various learning activities can enhance intrinsic motivation for those tasks ### Theories about motivation - William James (1842–1910) was an important contributor to early research into motivation, and he is often referred to as the father of psychology in the United States. James theorized that behavior was driven by a number of instincts, which aid survival - Another early theory of motivation proposed that the maintenance of homeostasis is particularly important in directing behavior. You may recall from your earlier reading that homeostasis is the tendency to maintain a balance, or optimal level, within a biological system. - According to the drive theory of motivation, deviations from homeostasis create physiological needs. These needs result in psychological drive states that direct behavior to meet the need and, ultimately, bring the system back to homeostasis. - If we are underaroused, we become bored and will seek out some sort of stimulation. On the other hand, if we are overaroused, we will engage in behaviors to reduce our arousal (Berlyne, 1960). - If we are underaroused, we become bored and will seek out some sort of stimulation. On the other hand, if we are overaroused, we will engage in behaviors to reduce our arousal (Berlyne, 1960). - Self-efficacy is an individual’s belief in her own capability to complete a task, which may include a previous successful completion of the exact task or a similar task. - A number of theorists have focused their research on understanding social motives (McAdams & Constantian, 1983; McClelland & Liberman, 1949; Murray et al., 1938). Among the motives they describe are needs for achievement, affiliation, and intimacy. It is the need for achievement that drives accomplishment and performance. (...) - [RSA ANIMATE: Drive: The surprising truth about what motivates us - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc) - Interestingly, in the video, the people who were offered the highest reward were the ones who performed the poorest. - Use money to be enough reward to eliminate the problem of money of the table. - We are purpose maximizers, not profit maximizers. - Me: The higher the reward, the higher the risk of losing it, so people will play it safe. - Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs - Rewards narrow our minds to very small sets of possibilities. Whenever we need creativity, it goes awry. - Dan Pink: - Autonomy - Mastery - Purpose - Praising effort instead of ability makes people want to go for harder problems. - Going for effort also means more resilience to failure. - Praise for effort: focus on learning; praise for ability: focus on success. - This can become a mindset later on, if consistently applied. --- ## Don't go to hospitals in the afternoon Tags: Psychology, Heatlh [When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing | Daniel H. Pink | Talks at Google](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUhnzxrNpCc&list=WL&index=1) - Also, students who do math in the morning have better GPAs than those who do it in the afternoon. - People are much more likely to overcome defaults earlier in the day and after breaks.